Tourney Mode Modification Request

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Tourney Mode Modification Request

Postby Nadroj » 12.10.2012, 09:21

Hello everyone, Jah. Here.
I'm going to point out a few things that are ruining "Pro gameplay" for my buddies and I. First off I would like to say that Say_No_to_War has done an excellent job maintaining his game and keeping it interesting to the old and new. Second I have played about 3000 games or so over the years with some of my friends (N.eb, Elitous, Voigt/Vedi) and am very expierenced at Bships. My buddies and I have tried every possible combo we could think of and noticed that a lot of players would copy our strategy the next game :wink: . I happend to come across something that is very unorthodox, I will point out a few of the problems i see in BShips Pros vs Pros games.

Here are some of my ratings to the type of Bships games I play. (1-10) 1 being worst game ever 10 being best game ever.

1. You play a shuffle game with some noobies (downloaders), you pick a solo ship and slaughter them. (2-10)
2. You play a shuffle game with some novice players, you must get some sort of combo or teamwork to get some momentum going (4-10)
3. You play a shuffle game with some average players, you must get a hook ship or something that is key to killing and saving players. (6-10)
4. You play a shuffle game with some Advanced players, you must coordinate to get kills and play smart. (7-10)
5. You play a shuffle game with some Of the best players, you must not feed and do whatever it takes to stay alive, but be smart enough to get a kill when your team has the opportunity
6. You play a team or shuffle game with best players or teams, everyone knows what to do without saying a too much. both teams buy 7-14k (maybe 5k) ships and gold hulls weapons and defend towers while trying to get a + team loot. both teams don't make any big moves unless 1-2 players or so are dead so they advance to take some towers etc.. (8.5-10) you may call this the perfect game but not for me :P i have some higher standards for a pro vs pro game. as u may have seen one of my buddies raging at another for some simple mistake xD anyway now for the last 1... yes #7.

7. You play a Team game with your best teammates/buddies you know on bships, and play vs a team that is almost exactly the same. Now i will describe a game i have played that has happened a few times because it has only happened vs them. Me Jah., N.eb, Elitous, Voigt, have played countless games together and usually don't lose if we are all on our game. But when we face Wan.taz, 13s.Fenris, El-trickser, and Electro,or shamrock (some other great player) we lose due to something that makes the game very boring. you may think how so? that sounds like an exciting game, ill explain...

We usually have our strategy picked out before the game starts, so we know what to do, the problem with doing so, is if we buy a 3k they will get a 5k, if we get a 5k, they get a 7k if we get a 7k they will save for a 10k and so on... it makes perfect sense in doing so, getting a bigger ship and seeing the enemies combo first is a smart simple way to counter. So we lost a few games trying a "perfect strategy". but there really is no perfect strategy because if there was then it would be abused. hence why the game is quite balanced. But in fact there is a Perfect combo.. yes i knew about it but never do it because it is the most boring strategy in the game, but it wins, but ill explain that perfect strategy later.

Apparently when I play a tourney game with Wan.taz, fen, el trick etc... or other pros it becomes a whole different game. A saving war. First to buy a ship will get dominated because like a said the opposing team will get a ship bigger. its quite obvious 5k>3K 7k>5k etc etc.. so both teams end up saving for 10k-14 with maybe 7k hook in there. so the first 30-40 minutes are saving battles which is boring, and a sailor kill doesn't mean anything. especially in tourney... so 30-40 minutes in, the game finally starts, the real game. classic hook battles and if someone gets hooked there is a great chance of killing them, unless the casual barrier comes up to save them as expected, but u may ask what is the problem.. the problem is all players are too good to die, and a 10k will not die from a 3 10ks and a 7k hook with ability dmg, a simple barrier can counter 50-90% dmg dealt and and wood ensures they will get away alive, most of the time.. so another 30minutes passes until both teams have enough Levels and weapons to kill someone very fast. 200 dps a player with a gold hull or so is enough to kill someone in a stun, but not enough to kill a 10k with a goblin wood that has help from teammates. so another 20 minutes goes by until the hardcore part comes in, 300-400 dmg a player and mass ability damage to finally kill someone in just a few seconds. (the actual fun of the game.. killing players) but as you know this is 80 Minutes into the game 1hour 20 minutes!!!!!! the real part of the game started! where towers die fast and a death or 2 is a game changer. but apparently in a Pro TEAM vs Pro TEAM is more of a harassing towers then killing players. where is the fun in attacking towers.? think of it as playing a first person shooter and only going for a flag, in a CTF game, with maybe 1 kill. Yes Conrgatulations!! you won the game, but was it Intense, heart stopping, did you get a adrenaline rush! :O, (lol little over the top) but it seems this game does not work the way most other games work, where as if u need the other team dead to make a push, but it seems in bships its too easy to stay alive unless each player has 1000 dps? where a hook with 4000 dps and abilities can kill u in 2 seconds? ya maybe 3hours in a tourney game.

What am I suggesting? a few options for a Tourney Mode Modifcation, 1. Make cooldowns on the ship shops. for example, You cannot purchase a 3k ship until 15minutes in, 5k 25minutes, 7k, 35minutes, 10k 50minutes, 14k 70minutes? Why so long? because it would constantly change the game, your team would have to pick a 3k combo when available, defend/attack then save for 7k, to bring a new combo/counter to the table. This way both teams must think of a new combo to change the outcome of the game. rather than instant 10k/14k for 2hours straight, same predictable combo for 2 hours in a pro vs pro game... in my opinion that is quite lame. This Tourney Mode cooldown would bring a very exciting game when pros play pros. Option 2. Start with 3k? so ships could be determined fast? although an exp bonus would be needed also, but i don't find this option good.. :/

Anyway Wan taz and his buddies beat us with a simple combo I had written down in my teams combo list XD.
Clan Strategies:(These Strategies do not always work depending on opposing team; Also using a strategy and
then switching to another strategy would be most effective.) Below is a list of my teams strategies, some are outdated, some are for fun, some are vs pros etc..

1.Rainbow Train---4x sailors (blue,red,green,yellow).////////// <Owls+cc in "Train" formation for kills>
2.Monster1--------InterBrigade/Barque/Overlord/OC flame////////// <Hook/Mark/Splash/Freeze/Flame>
3.Longrange R----4x sailors, each with LongRang////////// <Fast sailors/RepairGlitch/Longrange>
4.Trapper Flame---Trapper/Flamer/Cloud/Hook///////// <Pull/Stun/Flame/El Nino>
5.Spawn Kill-------Sotl/Caravel/puddler/Troll Destroyer///////// <Spawn kill the weakest link>
6.Triple pool-------Triple Trade <Pool 1 player all gold>
7.Triple Fleet------Zep/Trireme/Black Pearl////////// <Combo fleet to kill>
8.Seperate---------InterBrigade/Barque/Carrack/Trapper//////// <Hook/Mark/Push/Stun>
9.Fish Pool--------4x Fishing Boats//////// <Pool 1 player fish to get 4x fouled fish thrower>
10.Big Tanks------Black Pearl/Rainbow Warrior/OC barrier/ potempkin///////<4 ships with 2 types barrier 2 repair,aoe dmg internal/fleet/oc spawn dmg>
11.OCCC----------4x OC of same type/Fcannon/freeze/flame/shtoepsel///////// <OC Combo Confusion>
12.Insta-kill--------InterBrigade/Barque/AMinelayer/Returned Pirate//////// <RecallFleet/mines---Mark/Hook>
13.Multi-Stun-----Trireme/Asian/OCShtoepsel/overlord///////// <5+3+4+7=19 second Stun>
14.Multi-Spawn---OC Spawn/Double Jug/Rainbow Warrior/Battle Royale//////// <Multi Spawns with speed boost>
15.Spy Drain------Sea Punisher/Puddler/Zep/Cog///////// <Spy/Lifedrain/Zep/Seatang>
16.Monster2------InterBrigade/Trireme/Frigate/OC Freeze///////// <Pull/Ram/Freeze/Dmg-stun>
17.Str8 Robbin---OCFlame/3k flame/7k flame/napalm//////// <Flame Creeps to steal gold and XP>
18.Farcaster-----Bombadier/Viking/Schooner/Zep/////// <3x Flares for constant sight with Snipers>
19.Pullback------Returned Pirate/InterBrigade/Barque/Carrack/////// <recall Fleet+Mark/splash+hook/Mag Shield>
20.Fishing-------Returned Pirate/Frozen/Trireme/7kflamer////// <Bait with trireme-Recall All near bait/Freeze/Flame/Fleet/Ram>
21.OP-Fishn------Returned Pirate/Frozen/Barque/7kflamer////// <use mark distance and recall after marked to return units far distance>


#10 is what wan.taz, fenris, el trickers used vs us, they had a trireme holding us back for a while while the other players saved for these ships, then trireme eventually joined the crew. What did we have? a A-class combo Mark/hook/freeze/blink can all be done fast and deal 10k dmg, but thats no match for a simple barrier with another OP barrier, and 3x 2500 repairs (potempkin pearl, oc ability), and abolish buffs to remove stun.. this simple combo is a counter to all ships, and has a high combination of damage. Pearl Fleet= high damage, rainbow warrior=internal dps + dinghys dmg/hitpoints, + potemkin internal 200 dps + oc spawns 355 dps at 1350 range s/s
What do i suggest to have some sort of counter to this combo? remove summons is not enough, but something so simple as Debuff could counter 50% of that. how so? debuff can remove barrier (not sure about oc barrier, if so make a special debuff or something so oc barrier cannot be removed, or else it would be overpowered) it can remove a hull repair, spy, seaweed, etc.. all abilites that can save allies, a simple debuff could counter a counter an ally attempting to save an ally. which ships would i believe should have it? maybe remove potempkins extra coal and put in debuff, maybe remove sails from battle royale and just have summer winds and debuff./cc/spy. or replace spy. your call. another suggestion put it on the Returned Pirate? strike ship?, its an excellent ability and can be comboed perfectly with remove summons to deal exactly 5000 dmg which is oc spawn lvl 30s hitpoints. I truly believe this would only help the game.
I would rate #7 a (5-10) it should be 9.5 or 10/10 but due to the current status of how tourney mode works pros vs pros the outcome is quite lame :/

to sum most of this up put a cooldown on ship shops in tourney to make constant turning points to influence the games outcome, and so the first hour is not a saving battle.. and it will make it more interesting to play watch and have of course have FUN! :D

I have put a lot of thought in this, and could not think of everything i needed atm, but i hope you understand a few of my points here. I would like to see your thoughts on this :)
Nadroj
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Posts: 25
Joined: 14.03.2011, 11:30

Re: Tourney Mode Modification Request

Postby el-trickser » 12.10.2012, 12:42

some is right what you have posted some isn't
yeah the waiting and saving can be boring but it has become part of bships
i wouldn't know how to change it except making a mode similar to btanks where you get 10k and lvl10 to start with

for the strategy with pearl, potemkin, rainbow and oc spawn... i wasn't in that game

and its also wrong that we wait till you get your ships
its more like we have a combo made up at the start of games most of the times sader, as you took it at start too and then 1 or 2 3k ships and 1 5k and a hooker
though as you guys most of the times get ships first, due to being north or saving earlier we sometimes change our strategy
but it is wrong that we wait till you all get your ships and then buy the higher ships to counter
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el-trickser
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Posts: 76
Joined: 23.09.2011, 01:28

Re: Tourney Mode Modification Request

Postby Wan.Taz » 12.10.2012, 14:41

Pretty sums up a lot of things, some are right while some can b argued with. But thx for this instructive post.

A lot of things can b discussed when say_no is online so that a concensus can b found for future versions. Meanwhile I would like to give my thoughts on our games.

As i told u once, the way you guys play particularly with the hook/barque/1250range combo makes the game easy to read, in that it is indeed predictable. Am not saying we r not too, but what makes our force is that we are not afraid to adapt our strategy if/when something goes wrong.. Talking abt strategy i always find it amusing that when we play in any game we start the game and after 3 min or more of play we got everyone asking same question: ""Ships?''

I think you will agree that the way u play the game needs 60 min atleast for u to start hurting a pro team. Before that its just a waiting game of hooking/X. So what can we do? either take same thing and play mirror match or atleast try to push coz in any case your strategy poses no threat whatsoever if a team attcks since your main strategy is about getting kills while behind towers and hooking and making use of the range advantage in late game If we stay defensive its sure u will overun us in the long run (the magical 60 min mark).. One example of this if when we played a game with frag_pinguin as trireme.. He already had 4 towers killed while u were still saving for barque and asian if i remember right.. He bought tri, while enemy saves so ofc he wont sit back and wait for enemy to get big ships before engaging.

If u really want ships kills then fine.. But then if the teams who wants the kills just gets 1250 range weps and attacks...errr no..., camps behind towers waiting for that perfect hook and help from towers, then something is wrong..

Its also wrong to assume that we tend to c what ships u r getting coz in any case we already know before game what u r taking. In that regard u can c replays of games vs u and u'll find that we tend to tend to take sader or cog/ 3kflame/tri at start and then 2 7ks, one of which ofc is the brigadewhile we generally skip 10k ships. Thats irrespective of what u guys do.

Regarding the game with potemkin oc spawn etc, what was amusing is that u did not even try to counter it: a well used walrus would have done wonders there

And yes even when we changed tactic and went hook/freeze/flame+weaver, That game for sure was better but still whole game we attcked. Coz we actually started with 1.2k, 3k, 5k and 7k ships.

Strategies are part of any game. But any strategy has to b adapted to the game being played. We dont need to have a super combo for the game to work. Hybrid combo between stuns and tanks are workable too and again adaptation particularly late game is the key
Wan.Taz
Galleon
 
Posts: 60
Joined: 14.12.2010, 03:00

Re: Tourney Mode Modification Request

Postby Nadroj » 14.10.2012, 12:46

Well I can agree I was wrong on the games I called you out on, thank you for reminding me of what really happened. I cannot argue about the games we have played. We obviously don't like losing, but we do find it fun to play vs you, especially when the game has actually started, (all players have ships :D). We all play to have a good time win or lose.

Thanks for your input wan.taz, el trickser, but I got no input on shipshop CD, Debuff suggestion, or other potential option. :|

Well a few things I am trying to point out to the bships community in tourney games is the 20-40min. grace period. a ship-shop cooldown could make the games more interesting due to the fact that each team must select the appropriate ship at the time being. 3ks vs 3ks, then possibly jump to 5/7ks or 7/10ks/ then 14ks/ocs last. Now I guess you could say this already happens. Yes its possibly but in a pro vs pro game there is a greater chance of both teams saving for 7-10k (maybe 5k or something to hold team back/harass etc..)

I forgot one thing about one of the games we've played. In 1 game where the mode happened to be short mode instead of tourney, i believe you guys got some ships, can't recall which ones exactly, but sooner than expected you got pearl/rainbow warrior/potempkin/hook and it was quite unstoppable unless mirror was chosen. What i'm trying to say is even when we reached 500 dps or so a player, it was still not nearly enough to get a kill vs pearl/rainbow warrior/potempkin/hook. if we executed a perfect combo, of any type, it would be countered by a simple barrier (rainbow or hook) and a 2500 repair by Pearl or potempkin to cancel out any damage done. we could execute multi stun counter by potempkin abolish buffs/ barrier/ we could also execute mass damage abilities/ counter by 2x 2500 repairs and maybe a barrier with it. now why do i have a problem with this? because 3 14k= 13000 hp or so (gold hull +few points into hull or so) =39000 +7k 8000 hp, 47000hp + 4x gob wood=32000 estimate 32000+47000 =79000 hp /33% (28 gold hull and 5% from hero dmg reduction) = 105333 damage must be done to kill all 4 (not including 2x barrier+2x 2500 repairs or oc barrier if added) 105333/2000= 52seoncds to kill all 4. Not that long in bships terms, but long enough to harass a tower and back to stay alive. A simple 10-20 second attack on a tower is more than enough to deal some significant damage to it. Now i understand this is BShips Basics, but there wasn't a kill on either side for 40 minutes or so!!! just tower harassment repeat repeat. We attempted to do some damage to you guys b4 u got your ships, but it was unexpected and way too powerful to stop, all 4 of the ships listed have some sort of interal damage to defend/attack.

Ill finish this soon, but i am out of time :/
Nadroj
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Posts: 25
Joined: 14.03.2011, 11:30


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